McCartney vs. Lennon

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jonas
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Postby jonas » Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:04 pm

russ wrote:
And only 3 artists come to mind when I think of unstoppable cultural shifting on that scale.

The Beatles, Dylan and the Clash.


IFYQ.

russ
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Postby russ » Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:42 pm

jonas wrote:russ wrote:
And only 3 artists come to mind when I think of unstoppable cultural shifting on that scale.

The Beatles, Dylan and the Clash.
IFYQ.



Ummm..No.

infectiousdisease
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Postby infectiousdisease » Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:37 pm

Speaking as a youngun', AGAIN...

In this generation coming up, not many people listen to U2 (unless it's on the radio.) They're a fogey band. My friends don't know that The Joshua Tree was great. They just think that Vertigo kind of sucked.

The Clash, Led Zeppelin and the Ramones are the only three with significant cultural significance to teens now from the post-Beatles/Stones era.

Just a snapshot...where I live is probably more the exception than the rule, but had to throw in my two cents.

Dawg
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Postby Dawg » Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:46 pm

Are we not even going to bring Rap into the "music bringing cultural shifts" discussion? Maybe we should (and it wasn't perhaps, a change for the better...)

russ
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Postby russ » Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:08 pm

Dawg wrote:Are we not even going to bring Rap into the "music bringing cultural shifts" discussion? Maybe we should (and it wasn't perhaps, a change for the better...)


Heres something that will get me flamed, but so be it.

IMHO the biggest cultural shift Rap has brought to the table has been making it OK to glorify violence, criminal behavior, and the objectification of women....And that is something no culture needs any more of.

I'm not saying all Rap is about that....
I don't want to give Rap and bad rap.

sorry. couldnt help myself there.

jaimoe0
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Postby jaimoe0 » Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:47 am

russ wrote:
Heres something that will get me flamed, but so be it.

IMHO the biggest cultural shift Rap has brought to the table has been making it OK to glorify violence, criminal behavior, and the objectification of women....And that is something no culture needs any more of.



Many, many people said exactly the same thing about rock and roll. Either accusation is painting with far too broad a stroke. That crap has been in the culture and the society long before rap music.

Barabajagal
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Postby Barabajagal » Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:58 am

infectiousdisease wrote:The Clash, Led Zeppelin and the Ramones are the only three with significant cultural significance to teens now from the post-Beatles/Stones era.


I see a lot of the youngsters in Pink Floyd shirts. It puts a li'l lump in my throat!

U2 and R.E.M. have both had a huge, pronounced effect on rock music sound and production, particularly in guitar styles (but vocally and arrangement-wise, as well). Both bands sidestepped the "metal prowess" thing that was prevalent at the time. The Edge built signature riffs off the rhythms of his delay pedal, while Peter Buck updated, simplified and codified Byrds/60s folk-pop arpeggios. Both bands were big on "drone" notes and each I think had their most influence on their respective sides of the pond. For example, Patti Smith could not have made Horses if...oh.

U2's effect is more explicit: your Coldplays, Travii and Keanes make this plain. But I suggest R.E.M's sonic influence was subtler (their genius was subtlety) and more far-reaching and can be heard in a lot of unexpected places besides their indie rock progeny. They're one of those bands that makes people want their own band. The Smiths should be in this little triumvirate, too.

beginthebegin
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Postby beginthebegin » Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:50 am

jaimoe0 wrote:And g5am, I understand your fanaticism for REM, but I think the vast majority of people would disagree with you, and I'm talking casual fans here, and the casual fan is sort of how you measure the kind of influence and popularity I think we're talking about. Certainly, their sales have dipped.


You're right, REM sales have certainly dipped from their time in the biggest spotlight during the 90s, but they've dipped much much further in the US. They're still doing pretty well for a 20+ year old band internationally.

If you're measuring lasting and global influence by album sales, though, I think you've got to take into the account the REM has spent the larger part of their career out of the spotlight. The Trinity of huge REM records in the US -- Out of Time, Automatic for the People, and Monster (though Monster didn't meet its lofty expectations) -- didn't come until they were ten years old as a band, and that period really only lasted about 5 - 6 years. European sales is a slightly different story, but the fact remains that they spent 10 years as an "underground" band. REM weren't huge from single #1 like The Beatles were.

It was said best in the post above, and I agree, that the cultural and artistic influence of REM is vastly significant...

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Postby redfieldp » Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:03 pm

russ wrote:
Amazing, and a rare occurence.

And only 2 artists come to mind when I think of unstoppable cultural shifting on that scale.

The Beatles, and Dylan.


Okay, hold your horses - um, Elvis Presley?!?! If anything, I'd say he's the end all be all of culture changing influence through music in our time.

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Postby russ » Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:35 pm

redfieldp wrote:
Okay, hold your horses - um, Elvis Presley?!?! If anything, I'd say he's the end all be all of culture changing influence through music in our time.



Hmmm. I agree with you, and I also don't agree too...He did make HUGE cultural waves when he first hit the airwaves and tv screens,but after he went into the Army (in 58'?) his influence was never as strong again.
He didn't even play live in the 1960s till 68' whe he did the taped NBC tv special.
He could have been blowing away all kinds of people with live performances like all those other 60s bands, but the Colenel kept him busy making all those crappy movies.

I mean, of course Elvis changed the world's culture but while Dylan and The Beatles are STILL looked upon as artistic cultural icons, Elvis Presley's image has been, and still is to many people, that of a punchline due to his last few years. The don't even mention the music.
Its all bloated Elvis in the white jumpsuit, sideburns, fried banana sandwiches, and shooting tv screens.
I mean, do you hear people make fun of Bob Dylan, or The Beatles?
Not really.. They are treated respectfully.

Like it or not, Elvis has become a punchline to much of the world,
except Elvis fans (which I am one of)

That is why I feel Elvis, culturally speaking, opened the door, but Dylan and The Beatles completely broke it off its hinges.


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